Historic Scotland Investigation - BBC Radio Scotland

Scotland has 47 thousand listed buildings – the majority allow Historic Scotland to intervene in repairs. And developers large and small, public and private are complaining about the extra cost, delay and obstruction the agency’s involvement appears to cause. Factor which could be pricing ordinary Scots out of restoring and inhabiting listed buildings.

Sisters Stephanie and Mandy Roxburgh, from Rothesay, bought a tenement to renovate and create 12 affordable flats. But when their bid to fit the highest quality uPVC windows was rejected by Historic Scotland, the sisters took their fight to Holyrood.

The agency’s preferred option -- 42 single glazed wooden sash and case windows -- was £100k more expensive than the uPVC option.

In Benbecula, Phil and Mairi Ladyman who run a heritage centre – the Nunton Steadings -- claim Historic Scotland’s insistence on authentic draughty, solid wooden doors without windows has created a hard-to-heat, unviable building they may have to leave.

And at Rowallan Castle near Kilmarnock, Niall Campbell a stonemason and civil engineer who helped restore Glasgow’s Rotundas has been told by Historic Scotland that he cannot refurbish a thirteenth century castle as the centrepiece of his £60m hotel and golf course.

Is conservation becoming preservation? Does the agency value authentic empty shells more than habitable buildings?

You can hear my investigation including Culture Minister Linda Fabiani, with live studio guest John Graham Historic Scotland’s Chief Executive --  9am-10am Radio Scotland Monday August 4th. If you’ve comments email me here or call on the day 0500 92 95 00

Comments

[Seb]

So Stephanie & Mandy bought a B-listed building and were then surprised that it required a higher quality of attention than they were prepared for. That's pretty poor research on their part. Did they employ an architect with conservation accreditation? uPVC windows are detrimental on many counts - the production and disposal of upvc is environmentally damaging, it provides poorer insulation values than timber, is detreimental to the buildings as it attempts to hermetically seal them and upvc units are irrepairable with a shelf life much shorter than timber framed windows. The use of upvc is a false economy but good for those wishing to make a quick turn around in a property development. Perhaps you should contact Lister Housing association and view their alterations to a group of B-listed buildings in Lauriston Place, Edinburgh which provide improved insulation, reduced energy costs and respect historic fabric.

[Conservationist]

Why could the existing timber windows not have been simply repaired (although they looked fine in the photos) and given secondary glazing? Far cheaper than ripping out.

The plastic windows look wrong - no horns, too flat and white, and historic glass replaced with flat modern.

Seb is absolutely right.

The excellent work being carried out in Edinburgh with and by the World Heritage Trust on the Energy Heritage project can be viewed here:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Energy-Heritage-Project.aspx

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Gilmours-Close-Project-.aspx

The report regarding the staircase was a heap of nonsense also. How many people, over how many years, have NOT leaned over and fallen from the staircase?

In fact the entire radio report was ridiculous and thankfully, in the second 'live' part of the programme, with Historic Scotland and others, it was shown to be the ill-judged and badly researched nonsense it clearly was.

Those two, and others featured in the report, came across as people with no idea about historic buildings or the work of Historic Scotland.

That includes Lesley Riddoch. Hopelessly inept reporting, pandering to the ignorant and the grasping.

[Seb]

"horns" aren't alwayspresent on 19th century sash & case. The programme touched on the real root of the problems - understaffed planning departments. Governemnt driven targets mean the speed of decision supercedes the quality of decision and many Councils have few or no conservation qualified staff. And yet they will be making judgements on B & C(S) listed building alterations!

[Conservationist]

If you look at the others adjacent, they have horns. They appear identical to those which can be viewed (bottom part only) in one of the 'before' photos.

By the time this building was erected, they were usually fairly standard for purposes of strength, once larger panes of glass became available and not small panes, where the bars added strength.

Yes the shortage of conservation professionals is a problem, but then so is the ignorance, and indeed arrogance, of many people regarding conservation. I include local councillors amongst those. No reason at all why buildings cannot be successfully brought back into use, using traditional materials where appropriate.
It doesn't have to cost the earth. Conserve and repair what's there - far cheaper environmentally and often financially than rip out and replace.

However, if you aren't prepared for any extra costs, and a certain amount of restrictions in order to protect the buildings, don't buy.

[Conservationist]

"Historic Scotland’s insistence on authentic draughty, solid wooden doors without windows has created a hard-to-heat, unviable building they may have to leave."

This, too, is hysteria. Wood is a perfectly good material for doors, and why are they not draughtproofed?

The light is a different issue, and I wonder why the doors are labelled 'illegal' in the photo caption? Installed without consents?

[Seb]

The windows on the adjacent buildings look like replacements to me. My late 19th century windows have no horns.

It would be lovely if Councillors were better informed but they rely on their staff for expertise and if they're not skilled in conservation practice we're doomed!

[Conservationist]

We sure are.

Even so, when they have expertise, they are often simply ignored. Well councillors know best don't they?

[Stephanie Roxburgh]

I'm the Stephanie Roxburgh mentioned in Lesley Riddoch's report, so I hope you'll take the time to read this, especially Seb and Conservationist. Many thanks for your kind comments about the windows and that they 'looked fine in the photos'. The actual photo's on the report were of the PVC windows AFTER COMPLETION and not of the rotten, falling out wooden windows prior to the project. Glad that you conservationists approve of these PVC windows...it's a move in the right direction.
No we were not stupid about buying a list 'B' butilding then be surprised that it would cost more. If you listened to the program and read the article you would have understood that we bought a building which was reported as a list 'C' by the search company (we wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole if we'd known it was a list 'B' because of knowing we would have to deal with Historic Scotland). It transpired later when we made an application to replace the boarded up rotten windows it was a list 'B', as good old Historic Scotland had the address incorrectly held on their system. Despite this error on their side, Historic Scotland were able to treat this as a list 'B' building, ignoring the fact the correct address didn't feature anywhere on their listings.
Seb's comments on
uPVC windows being 'detrimental', 'environmentally damaging' and 'provides poorer insulation values than timber' are sadly out of date, the kind of comments I have seen only too often by ludite conservationists unwilling to see that some modern materials are actually beneficial to keeping older buildings in use to meet modern day requirements, and fail totally to understand that modern PVC, not the grotty stuff of the 70's, has evolved to be a superior material, and one which enhances traditional buildings (as confirmed by their nice comments about the look of the windows) . One of the worlds leading conservationists has come out in support of the UK PVC industry who has completely cleaned up it's act and achieves excellent re-cylcing rates, therefore the tag of 'environmentally unfriendly' no longer applies in every case (unlike the devastation of forests to provide hardwood timber), and I do have the evidence to support this statement. Our windows have the highest level of insulation achieveable and do not hermetically seal the building (but do keep out the force 10 gale heading in across the bay!), yes I can prove this as well.
And finally, the Victorians embraced the new wood 'Mahogany', which was not indiginous to Scotland, but was brought in from across the world because of it long life span and lack of warping, thus making it the best material of it's time for manufacturing windows. You can bet your last pound that if they had access to PVC at that time, they would have had the sense to use it!

If you really want to find out the truth about environmental and Historic Window issues on PVC windows, get in touch with these guys. http://www.bygonecollection.co.uk/

[Seb]

Stephanie, I must have missed the part of the programme that detailed your initial understanding that the property was C(S)-listed. I didn't make the positive comment with regard to the replacement windows but I do agree that they are superior PVC-U windows than the norm, with better detailing but still appearing plastic to my eye in both Lesley's photos and on Bygone's website. I'd be interested in seeing a performance comparison between timber framed and PVC-U framed windows, both double glazed. Bygone's heritage recommnendations are all unfortunately anonymous which does not inspire confidence, and the statement "Never mind saving your 20% you could save 74%, even offset your carbon footprint EVERY year sufficient to have a holiday flight for a family of 4 to Florida" seems to fundamentally misunderstand environmental issues. Who is the leading conservationist that supports the PVC-U industry? Bjorn Lomberg?

Finally, the Victorians used lead and mercury too and we don't have to repeat their mistakes.

[Conservationist]

The comment about the windows looking fine was the BEFORE pic ...oh dear, you do seem to have been taken in by the uPVC lobby.

Mahogany? Most 19th century windows were painted pine.

Do have a look at Edinburgh World Heritage Trust website, and the work being done there re the Energy Heritage Project. Not a bit of plastic in sight.

But please, please don't go near anything historic again. Leave that to those with some idea.

[bygone collection sash windows]

Conservationalist, thank you for your positive statement, "I do agree that they are superior PVC-U windows than the norm, with better detailing" thats what we try to achieve every time.

As for misunderstanding the carbon issue, no its just people dont believe a "double glazing" person when they correctly state that A rated sash windows are energy positive,(ie better than 100%) C rated is 74% better than single glazing.

if you want to see information about timber v PVCu then check out the GREEN GUIDE at BRE, timber windows range from C to A+, PVCu is A

As for Who is the leading conservationist that supports the PVC-U industry? Bjorn Lomberg?

No, his name is Dr Patrick Moore founder of Green peace in Australia. visit you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6M-ci4FQss

[Stuart Crosbie]

A perfect example of a once splendid and much loved building which is not being helped by its listed status is Marr College in Troon.

The council claims the costs and restrictions associated with the building’s B listed status make refurbishment costs unmanageable. The fact that the council has neglected the building for many years angers many local people who feel the situation is largely of the council’s own making, but nonetheless a way forward needs to be found.

The council, against the wishes of the a great many (and I would say the vast majority) of local people now proposes to build a new school on the playing fields and is currently consulting on the proposal. The consultation period ends in September. If this goes ahead the future is bleak for the Marr Building.

The irony is obvious really – a system which aims to preserve buildings of value is actually undermining the viability of doing so. The disaster is compounded by the resulting need to build on green space and playing fields. The listed building legislation aims to preserve the character of the building and this building is a school. If it ceases to be a school its character will be altered more radically than if cost effective interior refurbishment of the school were to be permitted.